It’s not uncommon to have relationship problems after having a baby – having a baby can put strain on any relationship!
On this episode of the Learn With Less podcast, Ayelet sits down with Julia Wenegrat, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
We spoke about Julia’s journey into her work with families, the ways in which her experience as a mother of two young children has changed her practice as a marriage and family therapist, Julia’s favorite tips for new parents and caregivers trying to manage relationships (with a partner and with additional primary caregivers) during those early infant and toddler years, and additional resources she recommends to families who are seeking information.
Julia’s work integrates the entire family, and she believes that we are all deeply impacted by the people that surround us. Our conversation centered around tips and strategies to manage partner relationships, but applies to anyone co-parenting in any sense of the word.
Quick links from the episode:
“And Baby Makes Three” by John and Julie Gottman (affiliate link)
Learn With Less podcast episode, “Emotional Regulation in Young Children”
Learn With Less podcast episode, “Labelling Emotions”
Learn With Less podcast episode, “Happiness and Relationships”
Learn With Less podcast episode, “Using the Language of Listening with Infants and Toddlers”
Text transcript of this episode:
Ayelet: Welcome to episode 56 of the Learn With Less Podcast. Today, I’m speaking with Julia Wenegrat, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Julia enjoys providing therapy with a focus on anxiety and excessive worry. As a therapist, she believes it is important to create a space where clients can feel safe to explore the changes that they would like to see in their own lives.
Her area of particular expertise is working with the entire family during the therapy process, with the understanding that we are all deeply impacted by the people that surround us. Julia is also the mother of two young boys, and navigates the stresses of parenthood and partnership on a daily basis!
So, welcome, Julia, we are so happy to have you, here! Welcome to Learn With Less.
Julia: Thank you, thanks for inviting me.
Ayelet: I asked you to come onto the show today to speak about the ways that we as parents and caregivers can manage the relationships that we have with others during these very sensitive, often overwhelming years of early parenting. But first, let’s just hear a little bit about you and what brought you to the work that you’re doing today!
Julia: Absolutely. So, I received my degree in marriage and family therapy up in Seattle, Washington, and after I received my degree, I went into private practice with somebody who specialized in anxiety using a more cognitive behavioral model. And so I spent a couple of years working from more of an anxiety-based approach, working with kids and adults.
And then, when I moved with my family down here, the Bay Area, I joined a group practice and really started to blend in the experience that I had working from the CBT model and with anxiety into a more family and couple-based approach. And so that kind of blend is what I’ve been doing professionally and moving forward. And I really love it, it’s super exciting.
Ayelet: I’d love to know a little bit about how your experience as a mother of two young children has changed your practice as a marriage and family therapist, if at all? What have you maybe become more sensitive to or more, shall we say, “realistic“ about?
Julia: Yeah, I think that’s a great question, and definitely when I was learning about all the parenting approaches in grad school, everything seemed kind of laid out in a very black and white rule book way. And, as I became a parent of one child and then two in fairly quick succession, I, perhaps, quite often, would look around my house and realize that I was doing the best that I could, and that things were all falling apart around me, despite of me doing my absolute best.
And so I would say that how my practice has been impacted is just a continued, very personal realization that we’re all doing our best, and as lofty as anyone’s goals may be about how they want to parent, or how they want a day to go or how they want a schedule to go… it doesn’t always happen that way, and we just kind of pick up the pieces and… and move on, and we’re all doing our best.
Ayelet: Yeah, it’s a sort of a realism.
Julia: Definitely. And the more kind of traditional behavioral approaches, as well, can be quite rigid, and I just think the reality of day to day parenting and of living in a family (no matter how old your kids are) are just not quite as rigid as the textbook says.
Ayelet: Yeah, I think we probably all feel that way. And when we read parenting books in general, we feel that way, I think, as well! What about… I mean, just to get a little personal, it would be wonderful to hear… I think, you know, for myself, as a speech-language pathologist, as someone who, you know, works with young kids and has certain lofty ideas about how to raise children, I have to step back when I talk to my own husband about how children learn, or grow, or play.
And when I have to sort of step back and manage how I talk to my partner, I’m sure that that is something that you experience and encounter as well, especially as a marriage and family therapist! And you’re smiling as we talk, so I think that you probably, you find that, too?
Julia: Absolutely! I think that’s something that we all struggle with… I mean, the thing that I try and keep in mind is that I know what I know about theory, but it’s also important to me in my own marriage that whatever we decide to do that I really want to hear what my husband has to say. And frankly, I mean, I don’t really feel that I’m the expert on anything, so, I’m open to any opinions, and quite regularly while parenting, I look at a situation and think… “well, I’m not exactly sure what the best thing to do is, here. I’ll try something and see how it goes.”
So, I feel like we can kind of come together. And honestly, I would say the one thing that I’m pretty firm on at this point, and my boys are almost three and a half and 20 months, so, pretty young, so this could change in the future. But at the moment for me, I would say the one thing that my partner and I are, in the moment, that we kind of back each other up, and that we provide consistency to our children about whatever the consequence or the good thing, whatever that is, that luckily my partner and I agree on a lot of the big things, and some of the little things, I just need to – I need to just let that go around the edges.
Ayelet: Yeah. Well, and I think that delicate balance is something to be found, as well. Nicely said. Alright. Let’s take just a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor, and then we’re going to hear a few tips and resources from Julia about how newer parents and caregivers might manage relationships, particularly and primarily with regard to partner relationships and then other primary caregiver relationships during those early infant and toddler years.
Ayelet: Alright, Julia. Let’s hear those tips. This is a topic that I know we all struggle with, myself included. What are some of those things that you’d like to suggest for our listeners to, I guess, keep top-of-mind when we’re all struggling with bandwidth, essentially, is what it comes down to?
Julia: Sure. And, Ayelet, I don’t know if… this is maybe not what you’re thinking of, but I do think this is the most important thing, which is that, I don’t know about everybody else out there, but as I became a parent, and then a parent again, and then started to juggle work and everything, I felt like, oh my god, there are like so many lists and so many things I should be doing and family dinners, and taking time for myself, and self-care, and all of these things… that really, I honestly think the most important thing is whatever you’re doing, that it works for you.
Ayelet: Hear, hear.
Julia: Like, I don’t know, if you want to co-sleep with your children, if that works for you, co-sleep with your children. And if you don’t, if you never want your children in your bed… I just don’t, I don’t think that there’s a right or a wrong.
Ayelet: Yup!
Julia: So, that is, I think, the number one tip. To say, is this working for me, how I’m approaching my family, whatever your family looks like. And if it’s not working, then figuring out how to make some changes and to experiment with it. That, I personally think, is my number one tip. But then, in terms of communication, I think there are some things with communicating.
Obviously, being a parent, there’s the ever-present kind of sleep deprivation, having to have a million different people talking to you at once, needing a million different things, so some things that I think are helpful… I don’t know, something that I always try to remember is assuming similarity – with your partner or whoever else is co-parenting with you. I think that often times in the heat of the moment, it’s easy to say, “oh, my partner’s the worst.”
Or somehow, they kind of become the enemy, especially when we’re feeling defensive or tired. But, if possible, remember that your partner is similar to you, you’re choosing to live your life with, or parent with, your partner. So that, I think, can change the course of the conversation. Does that make sense?
Ayelet: Yeah! And I think maybe we’d love to hear just an example, maybe what that looks like, maybe an example or an anecdote, if you can provide something.
Julia: So like, for instance, often times when we’re communicating, especially in conflict, if your partner is saying something – and I’m just saying your partner, it could really be anybody. They could be… if you disagree with them and you’re feeling defensive, it’s easy to just sit there and wait and to be kind of gathering your resources purely just to wait for their response.
But, if you’re able to sit there and say, ok I assume that we’re in this together, and that my partner shares similar values, and that I think they’re a fundamentally decent human being, you know, how do I really listen and understand what they’re trying to say?
Listening and understanding what my partner is trying to say is very different than agreeing, right? I’m not saying you have to agree, but really when somebody feels genuinely listened to and understood, I think that really lowers the defensiveness – all around. And then the conflict can become more like a conversation.
Ayelet: Oh my gosh, absolutely. How can you show someone that you’re feeling listened to and understood?
Julia: I think, exactly that way – by saying, “I feel like you really… like you really hear me, or like you really understand what I’m saying.” And then, from the other person’s perspective, I think it can really help, to say, hearing… I mean, these words sound so simple, right? But in conflict… let me go back a step – if you think about what happens just physiologically to your body when you start to go into conflict: your heart starts to race, you know, you maybe start to get sweaty, your mind starts to go a million miles an hour, right?
So if you can work on soothing yourself in those moments, then you can really bring that physiological reaction down, to a point where you can start to have a conversation. And to say things to your partner like, “this is what I hear you saying. Am I hearing you correctly?”
Ayelet: Nice! Yeah. That’s great.
Julia: And sometimes, you know, sometimes self-soothing in those moments… and obviously, this is just kind of the ideal situation. Like, maybe if you’re arguing about, like a pot of water boiling or something that has like a time-sensitive need, that’s a different situation.
But some of the stuff that we, as couples, fight about over and over again, they’re the same fight, and there’s not necessarily a time-sensitive aspect. And so, it’s possible to slow that down. Soothe yourselves, calm yourselves, agree on a time that you can kind of come back, and then really work on listening and understanding.
Ayelet: Yeah. That’s important… thoughts. And hard to do, of course, right? I mean, when you say it, it sounds, all these things sound so simple, right?
Julia: Totally.
Ayelet: But, of course, like, we are exhausted, we’re in that – in the moment, we’re in that sort of fight or flight response mode, and it’s so hard to remind yourself of those things.
Julia: 100 %.
Ayelet: What are some other tips that you’ve got for us, Julia?
Julia: So, what have we done so far? Assuming similarity, really listening and acknowledging the other person’s perspective, working on understanding – so, working on self-soothing.
Ayelet: We focus so much on getting our infants and toddlers to “self-soothe,” right? But, we have to do it too, for ourselves!
Julia: And I actually think – this is a little bit on the side, sorry, but, I think that modeling soothing yourself can be really helpful for your child, right? Our children don’t know how to react to their own emotions. And so showing them that you also have emotions and what to do with that, or that you’re figuring out what to do with that, can be a really helpful learning experience!
Ayelet: Huge, yeah. We’ve got a lot of Learn With Less podcast episodes about that labelling emotion and emotional regulation, how to teach that to infants and toddlers. But yeah, it’s true. When we can make good practice of that ourselves, we are not only taking care of ourselves, but taking better care… I don’t want to say “better care,” but taking care to teach our children and support our children’s social and emotional development.
Julia: Exactly. No one is a finished product, right? No family is a finished… it’s I don’t know about everyone else, but I feel like, “oh, everything’s kind of taking over!” then something happens and everything falls apart. So, I think…
Ayelet: Yeah! Exactly. I think it should be said, too, that you and I can sit here talking about how these are excellent practices, but I know that I, and I know that you… we are constantly struggling! We are all constantly struggling with keeping it together, with reminding ourselves to do these things.
And I think that when you hear from any kind of… you know, this is why I hate the term “parenting expert,” because there’s no such thing as a parenting expert. There is such thing as a professional who has a lot of information, and has access to that! And of course, that is the whole idea behind something like the Learn With Less™ Curriculum, because it’s giving ourselves access to the information that we can then figure out and experiment with how to implement that in our own lives.
Julia: Exactly. I think a lot of it… I guess the last thing that I think is useful to keep in mind, and this is at a different level for everybody, but kind of exploring that value of perfectionism in yourself, and what does it mean? What is my new role as a mother? What are my expectations of myself? Is it to have children who are always happy and perfectly dressed?
Or, how do I judge myself when I feel like I fail? I think there’s a lot of this kind of persona, right, of like the Pinterest mom, and what it means to be the perfect mother out there, and challenging our own preconceptions of motherhood, and kind of coming to terms with the good days and bad days, and kind of loving ourselves through it. This is probably another survival strategy.
Ayelet: Do you have any tips for that?
Julia: I think just talking about it, like we’re doing. Talking about it, and I think the thing that’s really worked is to be really humble about it. You know, you talked about this idea of no such thing as “expert,” and I do think that, you know, having two kids has been a very humbling experience in very many ways, but part of that humbling has been, “ok, what did I think I could accomplish and what am I actually accomplishing.”
And I could be really frustrated with myself, because I’m not accomplishing what I thought I would, or I could just appreciate the things I did get done today. You know, it’s all a matter of perspective, I think. I always joke with you about it – low expectations is the key to happiness, right?
Ayelet: Hahaha! I think the way that you just explained it was like “wow, that’s so true.” And then when you say it in a different way, it’s like, “well just lower your expectations,” it doesn’t sound quite as loving and lovely, but it’s true! I mean, we cannot expect our lives to look curated! Like an Instagram feed or a Pinterest board. You know, it just does not… we can’t do it! That’s great, Julia. Do you have any other specific tips for us that you’d like to share?
Julia: No! You know, I think, if anybody’s interested, and this, I think is maybe zooming onto the next question, resources…
Ayelet: Yeah, let’s move onto resources.
Julia: Resources, yeah. I wanted to just talk – so I can’t see myself, so tell me if you can see this?
Ayelet: We can see it, yeah. “And Baby Makes Three” is the book that she’s holding up for anyone who’s listening to the podcast.
Julia: Yeah, so just a pretty good skim. It really talks about a lot of the communication concepts that I touched on today, John and Julie Gottman are really amazing. Their work is all research-based. They have videotaped hundreds of couples up in Seattle, Washington. And they talk about, in this and other books, a couple of styles of communication that can be really detrimental to do with families, but also just with couple or partner communication, or family, any communication, really.
So, there’s criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. And I think, learning to recognize when either you’re doing any of these, or your partner, or anybody else that you’re parenting or co-parenting with, and finding a way to work through that or to change that communication. Because… everybody fights, right? So the goal is not to make fighting go away – it’s about how to resolve conflict in a way that doesn’t increase the hurt to any person involved.
Ayelet: Mm-hmm. And those tips you gave us are some of the ways to do that.
Julia: I hope so.
Ayelet: Excellent! Do you have any other resources that you’d like to share with us, Julia?
Julia: I don’t think so!
Ayelet: Great! Easy!
Julia: I mean, am I missing anything? I don’t know!
Ayelet: No! I think that’s wonderful! I mean, I think a lot of people look to the Gottman… I guess you could say method or technique or… The Gottmans! As a very strong influence in our…
Julia: So they not have this book, they also do workshops – if anyone has the time to spend a weekend. I looked into it, I never did! But so, they have people teaching this in all sorts of formats. You can probably download or order it in a DVD if you don’t want to read it.
Ayelet: That’s great. Thank you, Julia. And thanks so much to all of our participants of the Learn With Less® Curriculum Online Program for families who are here listening live. We are going to continue the discussion and open up for a Q&A session with you guys in just a minute, and for anyone listening from home or on the go, thanks so much for joining us and we will see you next time!