What can parents do to prepare for a smooth transition?
On this episode of the Learn With Less podcast, Ayelet sits down with Lisa Abramson, an entrepreneur, speaker, best selling author, executive coach and advocate for maternal mental health. She founded Wise Mama and co-founded Mindfulness Based Achievement, the New MBA, which teaches high potential women leaders how to create sustainable success.
We spoke about Lisa’s professional background, as well as her personal transition into motherhood, and how she came to do the work she’s doing today.
We touched upon the current state of maternity / paternal leave in the United States, and some of the major areas or issues for parents to consider when facing an impending return to work. Most importantly, we covered Lisa’s top tips and resources for families – what parents can do to prepare, or to make the transition back to work a smoother process.
Quick access to links in this episode:
Overwhelmed: How To Work, Love and Play When No One Has The Time, by Brigid Schulte (affiliate link)
The Wise Mama Guide to Maternity Leave, by Lisa Abramson (affiliate link)
Join the Wise Mama 30-day Meditation Challenge
Watch Lisa’s Tedx talk about her experience with postpartum psychosis
CONNECT WITH US!
Ayelet: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube
Lisa: Website / Facebook / Instagram
Text transcript of this episode
Ayelet: Welcome to episode 67 of the Strength In words Podcast. Today I am speaking with Lisa Abramson, an entrepreneur, a speaker, best selling author, executive coach, and advocate for maternal mental health. What can’t she do? She founded Wise Mama and cofounded Mindfulness Based Achievement, which teaches high potential women leaders how to create sustainable success. Lisa, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Learn With Less.
Lisa: Ah, thanks so much for having me.
Ayelet: So I have asked you today to come onto the show to speak to us about the topic of going back to work after having a baby, but first I would love if you would tell us just a bit more about you and how you got into the work you’re doing today.
Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So about five years ago, I quit my job running marketing at a high tech company. We’re doing mobile advertising and that looked great on paper. I had kind of climbed the ranks and was sitting in on the executive team and making big decisions, but inside I was like, this doesn’t cut it for me. This isn’t what I was meant to do. And I kind of felt like I didn’t have enough meaning and purpose in my work, so that led me on a journey to figure out what I wanted to do next and that ended up transforming into creating a business and wanting to empower women.
So, I started teaching about mindfulness, wellbeing, and doing executive coaching. So I kind of, my overachiever went nuts in the professional development space and I just, I couldn’t get enough of it. It’s like why aren’t we taught these skills in school, especially as it relates to, you know, creating a growth mindset and really the tools of mindfulness, like all these inner resources, I feel like a lot of times we’re over indexing on knowledge and content and forgetting about these internal resources that are so important to wellbeing.
So I started teaching about wellness and wellbeing, doing workshops at Google and Salesforce and other companies around the Bay Area. And then I had my first daughter Lucy, and that really changed everything… for many reasons, for the better because I became a mom and also lead to what of the biggest struggles of my life. I experienced postpartum depression and a rare form of postpartum depression called postpartum psychosis and ended up in the hospital and it was a thorough butt-kicking: here I was teaching about wellness and wellbeing and then I found myself so unwell and really had no framework for this or what – that it could even happen that…
I knew new moms say, oh, sometimes new moms are sad, I’d heard of that, but I’d never heard of like new moms go crazy. And that was what happened to me. So after that experience and picking up all the pieces and recovering and moving forward, I founded Wise Mama and wrote a book, the Wise Mama Guide to Maternity Leave about all this stuff that I wish I would have known about this process and transition.
So I’ve always been doing coaching, but now I’ve found that I love coaching moms, really transitioning them around maternity leave and their careers. I think we’re all just more committed and dedicated to our careers than maybe in generations past, because we’re a little older when we’re having our first children. So it’s a big shift and I think having support around that is important.
Ayelet: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Well, I would love for you to break down for us a bit about the current state, right, of maternity and paternal leave in the United States. So, and then can you also just, you know, run through some of the major issues or areas for parents to consider when facing an impending return to work.
Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, the issues on the systemic level, they’re everywhere. Unfortunately the leave policies in the US pretty much stink and that’s unfortunate. In Europe there are a lot better. I really think the postpartum timeframe, you know, it is a year, a year of recovery, of integration, but that’s not really what’s available here, which is unfortunate, but that is what’s standard in many parts of Europe.
But given that we do have shorter leaves or sometimes, you know, it could be eight weeks or 12 weeks, some generous companies give six months. But what I think is most important is for new parents and especially moms to get really clear about what success looks like for them or what they want. Because I feel like a lot of the women I coach, they’re optimizing on like the “should’s” and I think that I was doing that. My former self was doing that and it’s like, “I should go for that promotion, I should optimize this and that, I should say I’ll go on that business trip even though I don’t really need to be there.”
I should, should, should, or even I should check my email first thing in the morning. I should be available 24/7. So if you’re optimizing for those “should’s” and really falling into what Brigid Schulte in the book, “Overwhelmed,” which is a fabulous book… she talks about the ideal worker and this myth of the ideal worker that’s basically a young man in his early twenties with no kids, no family, no responsibilities, and we’re all trying to be that person, but it just doesn’t work.
And I think as a society, unfortunately we tend to under-value that care-taking responsibility that’s so vital. It’s the fabric of… I think the well-being of our entire nation is like mothering and taking care of the next generation and supporting them. And yet it doesn’t seem to have enough value sometimes because there’s, you know, moms aren’t getting paid for the hard work that they’re doing in the home.
So I think that there’s really like four steps that you can do to kind of think about your leave and what you’re working on, about kind of what’s success for you, and kind of digging into that, creating a roadmap about how you’re going to get there and what you need to achieve, what’s the mindset you want to adopt or that feels good to you.
And then what are the internal resources you need to build, whether it’s more self compassion, learning how to hold better boundaries, or mindfulness techniques. Like what are you going to do, how are you going to rely on a support system? So those are some of the things that I love working with new parents on.
Ayelet: That’s great. So can you tell us a little bit about what those mindfulness techniques are?
Lisa: Yeah, so one thing I think is really important is because there’s a lot of tough moments in the first year of being a mom and you know, and frankly in life. So I think one thing I really love to do is like savor the good. So when there is something where you feel like you’re getting that, like beautiful little snuggle, or this moment – this weekend, my daughter, my older daughter Lucy, made her first lemonade stand and I was just like, let me just like, be in this moment so fully and enjoy that this is like so fantastic.
For me, the baby phase is hard, but like older kids I’m like, I love, love, love that. I love interacting, hearing how her little mind works. So I think intentionally growing those moments of joy and slowing down to see them happening, so you can both like, yeah, you know, there’s a lot of studies have shown that we have a negativity bias based on our survival instinct.
So we’re looking for things that are wrong all the time. And in order to counterbalance that, we really do need to be intentional about looking for what’s right, what’s going well, and that’s.. It’s a daily practice. It’s a checking in because otherwise really your mind: the default state is to look for what’s wrong.
Ayelet: Absolutely. And I mean of course in those early weeks and months of motherhood, often there are a lot of things either going wrong or that are difficult, and especially that first time around figuring out what, what is even normal is such a difficult thing to navigate. So yeah, having these, just creating moments within your day of trying to focus on those things that are going well can be very helpful. I have found that to be very helpful, as well.
Lisa: Absolutely. I think also like just some block and tackling things about talking to your partner about roles and responsibilities of who’s gonna do what, and even like being really explicit about that. It’s sometimes awkward and uncomfortable, those conversations, but they’re so important.
And I think also, just especially when you’re pregnant with your first and you might have some time and you’re thinking about planning, I recommend shifting so much of the focus from necessarily the birth experience to, like, what’s going to happen after the birth. I know for me I was really nervous about childbirth so I spent so much time and like took a lot of classes about the childbirth and that was 24 hours of my life. And then I had like this whole other piece that I was like, oh, and now I have the baby. Oops! I didn’t really plan for that part.
I mean I tried to, but really I just bought stuff which wasn’t what I needed. I needed like a lot of other types of support. So even little things, like I tell women when they’re pregnant, first off, get a therapist just in case you need one, just make one initial appointment with a therapist. So if you have a complication because one in six moms has some form of maternal mental health concern. So you’re not alone if you have some trouble adjusting to this major life change.
So I think all new moms should be supported there. So get a therapist. I think also make a list of your favorite spots for takeout and like what you and your partner like to order from the places so you can text that easily to a friend when someone says – anytime in the first year when someone says, Hey, can I help you with something? Give them a task, please give them a task so it can say bring me this.
Also like just grocery store supplies. Like what is your list of staples, what brands do you like? Make that once and then give that to, you know, your in-laws where you could even give that to if you have a, you know, a mother’s helper or nanny, you know, look in my fridge and see – if any of these 15 items are missing, go get a refill.
Like, there’s something called mental load and moms experience very significantly, which is just, we got a lot of stuff on our mind that we’re trying to do, trying to accomplish, keeping tabs on. So the more you can get that out of your head and onto paper so someone else can help, I think that that makes a big difference. So there’s bigger concept, internal resources like the cherishing the good, so important, but there’s also like block and tackling: let’s make your day to day reality better.
Ayelet: I love that. That’s great. So let’s see. We are going to take just a break to hear a word from our sponsors and then we will hear a few tips, more tips and some more specific resources from Lisa about easing that transition as well as your favorite resources that you like to recommend to families interested in seeking out more things about this topic.
Ayelet: Okay. Lisa, you’ve already given us a few really great tips, but let’s hear some more. What can parents do to prepare for or make that transition back to work a smoother process. So, a few things that we’ve already touched upon are things like those mindfulness techniques, writing those wonderful things down and a lot of that I think keeping track of things. I mean especially as a new mom, like things go in and out of my head.
You know, how are you going to remember anything if you don’t write it down? So I love that for tracking the good things and then tracking the things that you just need. And I love that because for several reasons, number one, because they’re more likely to get done and number two, because I think in those early days and weeks and months, we can often, I think if you’re one of those kinds of people who likes to track things or who can like get a little bit nutso about tracking things, it can get, it can make you crazy like tracking feedings, tracking sleep, all of those things, but tracking things that are actually good for us and helpful for us and our mental health and our family like wellness – that is such a leg up, I think, on those tracking sort of mechanisms. And it’s, it’s a much healthier way to deal with that need to sort of be in control of something when you’re so out of control in those early days.
Lisa: Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think that there’s some of those kind of like practical tracking things. But then there’s also getting clear on like, how can I get those needs met? I think quite easy to fall into the role of, of a self sacrifice, looking out for everyone else’s needs and forgetting about her own. But that really doesn’t do us any good and you cannot be there if you’re frazzled and you’re not getting your own needs met, you really can’t be there for your family the way that you want to. You can’t show up.
But actually I think there’s a step before that is sometimes we don’t even know what our needs are. So there’s actually some exploration that I think can be really helpful to deal with a coach or with the therapist. But like what are my needs? What really recharges me and I think here, too, is what are the needs that recharge me that are healthy, that aren’t just like numbing or distraction because those are just kind of short term fixes and sometimes we need them but also like what really feels good and fuels you. So I know that an hour of a conversation and a walk with a friend that could get me like weeks of well-being points. So like, but what are the things that really like, recharge you?
Ayelet: Totally. What are some other things for you that you like to use, I’m curious, if you’ll share.
Lisa: So, a nap for sure. A nap all the time. And now it’s like it’s raining in my head and I’d take a nap and I’m like, oh, the sun’s shining again. So yeah, I mean even just a 20 minute nap. Meditation, of course, for me is really centering, practicing self compassion. Journaling can be really wonderful. Calling a friend, especially a friend, you know, that’s a mom can be really supportive. Being out in nature, just fresh air or reading People magazine. I love that one. Yeah, exactly.
But you’re like, you know, like all the things that I don’t know. I, I love it, and I can’t say I even read it. It’s like flipping through the photos. It’s not even reading, it’s like flipping through the pages and looking at the photos. So I know that I’ve had like a rough week if it takes me like five days to not read-read people magazine, kind of like, oh I didn’t even have time to like flip through 60 pages of pictures.
Ayelet: And advertisements, right?
Lisa: Yeah, getting clear what are your needs and then what does it take to meet those needs, and getting the support of a coach or a therapist. And I think also know – all of these changes, they’re temporary and the first year after birth is the hardest. So if you feel like I definitely felt like I’m really needy right now.
Like I need a lot of support but it’s temporary, and so it’s not going to be forever, but it’s easier to let go of support and be like, oh I didn’t need my grandma or mom coming over to help every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday afternoon I just need two days a week or instead of three days a week. But start with more. It’s easier to do that, to release the support then to try to, in the sleep deprived state. Like figure out another.
Ayelet: Yeah, absolutely. I like the simple message that you spread, as well, of just connecting with a friend. The simple, everyday things. And I think keeping it simple and healthy, and it’s true. Just a couple of minutes sometimes can recharge and refuel us.
And I know that for many of us, like the idea of taking a nap when you’re sort of like already crazed or you know you have so many things to do is next to impossible, but it’s not the only thing and it is a great thing when it’s possible. And I know that that “sleep when the baby sleeps” terminology is used by everyone and it’s like the sage parenting advice and it’s great when it works, but it’s a really hard thing to do. And I love, Lisa, that of course you’re giving us a lot more than that, so…
Lisa: Yeah, and I think for me, I found that actually sleeping when the baby’s sleeping is really hard. I actually need to have someone else there like in charge like watching the baby or I couldn’t relax enough. And so if you’re feeling that way, you know, it might be nice to even if it’s a friend coming over and just having them be on duty, even if your baby is napping. Because I know it’s, it’s hard.
You’ve got a lot of stuff going on. But also if you do have those opportunities for protected sleep, like when you have someone helping you with the baby and you’re still not able to like unwind and take a nap, that is a kind of a warning sign for postpartum issues so, and especially postpartum anxiety. So it might be helpful to talk to a therapist if you’re experiencing that. For sure.
Ayelet: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. Alright, so Lisa, what about a few other favorite resources that you can share with us.
Lisa: Yeah, so I’ve recorded meditations. They’re just five minutes a day and on my website I have a 30 day meditation challenge and I email you a simple link to something that I’ve recorded, topics like gratitude or savoring the good and even receiving support and how that feels. So all sorts of topics, five minute meditations easier than a longer meditation, but still a challenge to fit into the schedule of a new mom.
So I recommend if you’re pumping or nursing, that’s a good time to listen to the meditation so you can kind of – I’ll allow you to multitask even though it probably says not to, but yeah, that’s on my website. It’s free and it’s 30 days, so there’s a lot of different varieties of meditations offered there.
Ayelet: Lovely. And then you mentioned a book earlier.
Lisa: Oh yeah. Overwhelmed by Brigid Schulte. That’s a great book. It’s a big one. I wouldn’t recommend it for new-new mom, but if you’re pregnant pick it up. That’s why I literally made this is the shortest book ever. So you put it in the diaper bag and read it on the go because we, it’s hard to find time to read.
Ayelet: Yup. That as we all know. What about, do you have anything about the kinds of sort of scripts that families can use or talk about with their own employers?
Lisa: Yes, I have some of those resources in my book and also a fun thing I didn’t mention – a good resource in the book is, there’s actually a to do list, especially for over achieving women. If you find yourself kind of type-A and driven, you might be used to really like getting a lot of stuff done and this feeling of accomplishment is really important to you. I know that’s how I identify myself. So when you shift to maternity leave, it’s important to kind of like take on a new mindset that isn’t as achievement-oriented and also just shifting your expectations.
I know I had like mile high expectations after my first daughter of like, oh, I’m going to be like feeling great and back in my skinny jeans in a week and like out there like connecting with new moms. Like no, I wasn’t doing anything for a month or so. So kind of like checking out those expectations. And then I have a little guide in one of these things is a major win for the day. I mean I fed my baby. That’s all you need to do the whole day. Like that is a check mark and you’re like, job well done.
So when you have too many things on your plate, just remember like one small thing a day is like that is gravy and things like writing thank you notes for the gifts people give you. Put that – that can be in nine months or in a year, or maybe never at all. Don’t put on the pressure to do things that are not essential in those first few months. No one should expect anything of you, and you need to kind of lower your own expectations about what’s appropriate.
Ayelet: Yes, I so agree with that. And, and you mentioned earlier too, that piece about just slowing down and allowing yourself to slow down because that’s of course the way we get to enjoy a little bit of it, right? Because it is so amazing and miraculous and insane, and it can be difficult in this sort of world where we’re in right now because motherhood is so often portrayed as this beautiful, special, amazing time, which of course it is, but it’s also really hard and we have to be able to talk about that.
So, thank you Lisa, for, for helping us do that. Yay. Well thanks, uh, to you, Lisa, end to all of our participants of the Learn With Less® Curriculum who are here listening live. We’re going to continue the discussion and open up for Q and A session for you guys in just a minute, but for everyone listening from home or on the go, thank you so much for joining us and we’ll see you next time!
Lisa: Thanks!
