Bringing Together New Families to Build Community
On this episode of the Learn With Less® podcast, Ayelet sits down with Lindsay Teitelbaum, a pediatric speech-language pathologist, mother, parent educator, Learn With Less® facilitator, and the owner of the inclusive community play space, Spirited Play Labs.
Lindsay’s physical community play space for new families is in San Ramon, California. She supports new families with neurodiverse children, as well as parents and caregivers with children of all developmental levels, from birth to three. Lindsay has doubled down on building community by bringing groups of families together with “caregiver & me” groups.
Not familiar with the term, “caregiver & me” classes? We use it as a more inclusive term instead of “mommy & me” classes. Our classes are open to – and meant for – ALL parents and caregivers: not just moms… but also dads, non-binary folks, grandparents, foster parents, babysitters, nannies, and other amazing grownups who care for tiny humans. We’re going to play the “search term” game here (so you can find this great content more easily!) and help shift the conversation from “mommy & me” classes to “caregiver & me” classes… to do our part to shape the more inclusive world we’d like to live in.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Lindsay’s background and how she placed her values front and center in terms of how she wanted to practice speech-language therapy
- What drew her to the Learn With Less® philosophy, and the value of prioritizing parents and caregivers and parent education
- Perception changes she’s experienced that allowed her to create a space for families
- What it means to be creating an inclusive space, what Lindsay has considered, and who ends up being centered
- How it feels to serve families as a facilitator, instead of coming in as the “expert”
Helpful Resources Related to This Episode
Learn With Less® Stories: Additional podcast episodes and other interviews from educators who’ve provided the Learn With Less® infant/toddler family enrichment curriculum and families who’ve experienced our programming.
FREE Infant/Toddler Development Blueprint: Discover the four major areas of infant and toddler development, what’s involved in each one in the first three years of life, and what you can do to support that learning (using what you already have in your home).
Maisie Soetantyo’s Better Community certification and Autism Career Pathways (you can follow Maisie Soetantyo on Instagram, here)
Independent Clinician Podcast, with Jena Castro-Casbon
Two Sides of the Spectrum with Meg Proctor
Learn With Less® Bundle: get our favorite infant and toddler development resources (save 70%)! Discover how to support & connect with your tiny human, without having to buy a single toy.
Learn With Less® Facilitator Training & Certification Program: Use your existing skills as an educator or therapist to serve families holistically with a high quality program that will provide lasting impact! Apply now to become a licensed facilitator Learn With Less®.
Learn With Less® “Caregiver & Me” Classes: the magic of Learn With Less® lies in the communal aspect of coming together with our resources, in community with other families. Join us for a virtual or in-person class led by a licensed facilitator near you!
Connect With Us
Lindsay: Website / Instagram / Facebook
Ayelet: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest
Text Transcript of The Podcast Episode
Ayelet: Lindsay Teitelbaum! I’m so happy to have you here recording for the Learn With Less® podcast will you go ahead and just share a little bit about you, how you got into this work, your educational background, and how that led you to what you’re doing now! Big question, but you know, that’s where we’ll start. And if you could share your pronouns and where you are in the world and all that.
Lindsay: Yeah, so my name is Lindsay Teitelbaum, pronouns she/her. I live currently in San Leandro, California, which is the San Francisco East Bay. And I have a business in San Ramon, California called Spirited Play Labs. I am a speech therapist. And I’ve been doing speech therapy for about eight years or so. And I’ve worked in a lot of different organizations and systems in which I just took issue with a lot of the ways in which we treat kids, you know, using speech therapy.
I discovered Learn With Less® during COVID, so 2020. And at the same time was sort of envisioning something larger where I could practice the principles of therapy, but also parent coaching and community building that I felt like I wasn’t able to practice elsewhere. So that was in school districts, private practice, clinic work, I’ve done all of those things throughout my career. And there was always those couple pieces that I was like, Oh, you seem like you want to do this, but then you’re not really doing it, or you just don’t want to change things or whatever, you know, that whole thing about if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, you know?
And so, during COVID, I was working for a public school, you know, we weren’t doing anything in person, and then also virtual, they wouldn’t let us do anything virtual. And so I just said, Oh, okay, I’m going to stop, then, I’m going to leave this district, and I’m going to go into private practice. And that’s where I started seeing kids and building the vision of what Spirited Play Labs is, and I did your Learn With Less® training during that time, which really significantly influenced what I did with Spirited Play Labs.
A Community Center For Families, Featuring a Multisensory Play Space
The business that I have currently is a community center, I run an open play space, inclusive, multi sensory space. It’s interesting, because it’s bringing in neurodivergent, kids, neurotypical kids, it’s a big old mix. And I love that, and it’s birth to six. And then in addition, I’m doing parent and child facilitated play groups.
To me, the parent and child piece is like the most important because a lot of people are doing facilitated social groups or play groups or what we call like social skills and all this, but the most important piece is that the parent is present in the groups that we’re running. And it’s play, and it’s with your community. And I’m doing lots of different versions of that with other local providers in the area. Okay, that’s everything.
Ayelet: That’s everything, yeah. Okay, so where to go from here? I mean there’s so much… so much there! So okay, let’s take it back, and I would love to hear a little bit if you could tell the good listeners… So you said before you started the Learn With Less® program, you were working in a few different kinds of environments like private practice and in the school district, right, before I started. Initially, what was it that drew you to this whole Learn With Less® philosophy? What was it that brought you in and made you want to take a move?
Lindsay: One piece was I felt like a lot of the people that I worked with didn’t seem like they cared about parents, or they saw parents as an obstacle. It was always this sort of negative thing around parent. And then I became a parent in 2017. And especially because most of us are, you know, white women in this field, serving a diverse group of families. And I always just felt like we stepped in, and we were like, this kind of boss lady being like, Oh, I don’t like the way you do this, parent!
The style that we approached parents was very, like, authoritative from above talking down. And I always was just like, this is weird, like, what’s the point of this? And so Learn With Less® really spoke to me because it was directly addressing the parents. You and like one other sort of giant program is sort of addressing parents, I don’t know of many other programs that directly say, parents are part of the experience of development. We want parents to be given the tools, and we want parents to be the main sort of supporter and teacher of their children… and that we are the conduit, we are the vessel for that information; we are not the information.
Ayelet: Us as educators and therapists, right or yeah, I love that.
The Parent Piece: Working With Young Children Means Working With The Whole Family
Lindsay: I would work with a kid for an hour, and I would walk away and I would be like, so what? What did I do for an hour? I put on a little show, I did a little song and dance for the kids. I got them… and people would say to me, Oh, you get my kid to do things that I can’t do. And I was like, Oh, I’m failing, actually, if that’s what they’re telling me! Because, who cares if their kid can use certain skills or certain strategies when I’m present but as soon as my presence is gone, they’re no longer able to do those things. I’m like, what’s… what is that then that’s no point, no point.
So Learn With Less® spoke to me because of that parent piece. And then, the other piece that I really liked was… I’m also just, my own parenting style is giving my kid like… Like, I remember when he was little I used to just get paper towel rolls. And I’d just put them on his hands and see what he did. Just silly stuff in the house, and I almost never bought toys. And I would go to Target. They have now an entire V-Tech aisle, and it keeps expanding! And I’m like, What is going on here. So I was also really inspired, I worked at the public preschool, and all of those people would give me their hand-me-downs, and they were all just sort of, quote unquote, old school toys were really simple. They have no lights and flashing and all of this.
I just felt like, oh, yeah, like this is so accessible. And this is meaningful. It doesn’t have to have lights and sounds, and blah blah blah, to make it an environmentally enriching toy. On top of that, I actually saw a lot of the kids that I served in speech therapy, playing with those toys. The relationships go away when those toys are activated, because they’re like, woosh! Right into that toy.
You would try as a therapist to engage sometimes. And it was like… get away, this is my private experience with this toy. So I always just felt like some of those toys made it so that you didn’t need to be in relationship, which sometimes that’s fine. But sometimes it’s like, I want to build relationship with you, or I want you to build relationship with your parents. So what items can we think about to do that if it’s not going to have like lights and sounds and stuff?
Ayelet: So you found as a parent yourself, as a caregiver yourself that you gravitated to that and you could see the benefit of these everyday items, and simple, simple toy-like substances that were hugely beneficial. And like you said, I love that they could help to build the relationship, because that’s what we’re talking about, right? I mean, we’re talking about helping families to feel confident that they can both support their child’s development and also the connection between caregiver and child.
That’s huge, right? Yeah, that’s the whole point. So tell us a little bit about this journey into and through Learn With Less®, because you started the program. Tell me a little bit about your own perception of yourself, too, as far as how you felt you were going to achieve this shift. And then now, how that changed after participating in the training program.
Parent Education Means Getting on Equal Footing With Families
Lindsay: I remember the content all immediately spoke to me. And I was like, yes, yes, yes. And I took it in, and it felt in alignment with what I believe or what I was already practicing. And the area in which I think I had the most growth was in understanding how to, because even though I love working with parents, I still have a lot of work to do in really understanding how to coach parents and support parents versus that direct, “I’m going to tell you” thing.
And so the module that you did around adult learning really spoke to me because I feel like I did graduate school. I learned all about kids, like, I got that part. It’s really the part around the parents thinking about the diverse backgrounds they come from the identities they have the style of learner that they are… thinking about that is like a whole new paradigm that is really scary, but also will make the most meaningfulness for the children that I say I’m serving. And so I think stepping into that role, I just, I want to be able to just talk to parents in a way where they feel like they’re understood and they’re being talked to at a matched level.
I’m not at this authoritative hierarchy level. And so that was what I think the modules really helped me to do. And then once it came time to doing our demos, yeah, continuing to remember that it’s not about me putting on… it’s so hard to not, like, the show. It’s all about for speech therapists. And I don’t know about other disciplines, but it’s all about the show, right? You know, the big…
Ayelet: Can you define that further for our listeners who maybe are not quite familiar
Lindsay: Yeah, you show up and you’re really happy, and you have… And you’re constantly moving and talking, and you’re bringing out all the best items, and you’re like putting it in the kid’s face and you’re like going, going, going, going and not stopping talking and not making space for anybody else. Because you feel as if you’re being put on the spot to like, be amazing. That, to me, is the show. And I used to walk away from that super tired and just feeling like it was not authentic.
Even though you know, I’m an East Coast Jewish woman, I’m very talkative by nature, but showing up to someone’s home and becoming a chameleon into their own experience… that takes a lot of self restraint and a lot of patience. And it’s definitely worth working on that, ongoing. So that was I think, the most impactful piece just continuing to try that out and feel that out. Especially in a group dynamic, allowing for whatever families bring, allowing that to exist and not trying to fix fix, fix, manage, manage, manage, you know.
Ayelet: Yeah, it’s a huge paradigm shift for so many. I mean, I think for pretty much every single facilitator that’s gone through the program has commented on that shift from wearing the teacher hat or the educator hat or the therapist hat, into this facilitator hat. Can you talk just a little bit more about what that feels like or what that looks like for you?
Building Relationships with Parents to Address Their Needs
Lindsay: It’s like so much observing. And not doing a lot of talking, and I have not been doing as much direct work while I build the business, but before I took a pause on direct work, it felt like becoming friends with the parents. It felt like building relationship with the parents and addressing their direct needs in the moment and not coming in with a prepared… Like, topics are good, but like ultimately dropping the topic to a degree if it doesn’t suit these specific parents or trying to address the topic in very individualized ways.
So it feels actually like more thinking and less talking. Yeah, right. So sort of watching what’s happening and trying to meet that moment, instead of concocting all these grand plans and trying to make those happen.
Ayelet: I think that is a big, big shift. And for so many of us therapists types, especially those who I think are the majority comprising this field of like Type A, very planned out, you know, very highly structured, this is how the session will go. And, and being able to sit back and say, Okay, I do have a structure, I have a lesson plan, an activity plan. But being able to sit and say, Okay, here’s what I want you to try, here’s what we’re going to look at today, or in this session.
Here’s the purpose of what we’re going to try to do. And then I’m going to see what happens if you follow my lead. And then we’re going to look at what words come up, what movements come up. What things that the child is exploring what kind of play comes up and what we can say about that. Or how we can put it into a song or a rhythm or whatever that is what the Learn With Less® curriculum is right? Yeah. And that’s that we have, it’s within a structure, but highly unstructured.
Lindsay: I’ve been thinking of the word structured chaos a lot. Because when I see the groups happening at Spirited Play Labs, like there’s this moment of a little terror, you know, you’re watching it, you’re like, Oh, my God, you know, you have this, like, whatever you have, you have some people bring cardboard boxes, or pools of water, or whatever kind of random items. And you have this group of toddlers, pre K kids, whatever coming in, and you’re like, Ooh, let’s see what happens.
That takes a lot of confidence and openness on the part of the provider. To be like, I’m going to show up with what I have, I’m going to directly teach important information. And then I’m just going to let it flow and see what happens. And try to like embed that into what the parents are coming in with. And sometimes if the parents are coming in with, I don’t know, something unrelated or something that’s distracting the group we’re coming in with, that’s a whole other thing.
But meeting parents where they’re at and give them the information. Sometimes it’s not even the sometimes it’s forming the relationship and giving them the information later down the road or something because sometimes they come in and they want the information, but maybe there’s a lot going on, the kids actually access it.
Ayelet: I love what… you keep using the words “building relationship.” And that is such a key piece of this work, right, of the work of parent coaching. The work of helping to, as a provider of any kind of practitioner create a space, both physical and emotional for building family capacity. And it starts with relationship. So tell me a little bit about, to you, what the importance of building community, especially within small groups is all about? To you, what is the value of that? How does that play out in your business, and in your life?
Building an Inclusive Community For New Families
Lindsay: I’m sort of serving two very different populations in the space, and building community among all of them. The one that was first on my radar was the neurodivergent kids who are in private therapy and whose parents are shuttling them from appointment to appointment. And they may not have anyone else in their sphere who has any kids in therapy or with disabilities. And then to me, it was like a no brainer of they need to be together! I see them on Facebook talking to each other. I know there’s a deep, for a lot of them have shared with me, a deep loneliness or isolation or fear of going out into spaces they don’t know are welcoming.
For me, that group was like, of course, I’m going to form groups and bring them together so they can talk about resources. Compare therapists, sort of being able to talk about the day to day experience of bringing their kid to all these things and experiencing early intervention and all this. And then the other group I’m bringing together is just families of kids birth to three, which was on my radar, but wasn’t because I was like, oh, there’s so many “moms groups” and certain areas in the Bay Area there’s a lot of coming together of families and meeting up at parks and they’re sort of creating their own connections.
But I made the physical space, and they’re all coming and joining together as well in the space, and they’re all showing up! A lot of them are utilizing the space to ask questions about development. And what I knew but didn’t know for sure was who’s giving them the information about development just as their kids are developing? And I talked to a lot of them and they’re like, Yeah, my pediatrician gives me five minutes, or all the other parents just tell me, Oh, don’t worry about it and move on. Or there’s just people have expressed to me regardless of whether their kid needs any private services or is typical developing at this point, they want access to the information.
That community is being formed, as well, in the space at the same time, which is a lot. But essentially, the community is being formed around parents gaining access to information and parents coming together, because they care about their children, and they’re nervous, and they want to know more. And that’s just bringing them together. And the people who are joining are all these, like, really nice people, too. I tell everybody, because I ran the space as a membership. And then the groups are a weekly thing you commit to for a period of time. And most people who join groups are like really nice people, like they want connection.
Ayelet: Other people who want community and connection.
Lindsay: Yes, It’s a really lovely thing to see them come together and chat and they look at each other’s kids and kind of go hmmm, what does another kid’s parents kids look like? And how do they parent and they kind of like see each other. And so I think I’m really gonna keep building into sort of that Birth to Three, these developmental play groups and doing catch all developmental groups, because people don’t have access, and they just want to be among their peers talking about their daily experience of parenting.
Ayelet: I’m curious, what do you think? Or do you know, what would you or your clients describe as the value of the space to your business? What problem does it solve? What challenges does it help them to solve?
Lindsay: Well, groups, for whatever reason, feel out of reach for a lot of people, I don’t know, in this area, some of the groups that are provided are like once a week at a very specific time only, and people can’t access it. Or it’s through a clinic that you have to already be a member of this kind of thing. So I’m having my hands out with lots of groups. And it’s like, Okay, here’s all these groups, try out the ones that speak to you that support you as a parent. So that’s one thing.
Then a lot of people describe, I’ve heard things about it being an oasis, and it being this really safe space. Because most of the space is enclosed. So sometimes with big open parks and families feel like they can’t, they don’t feel safe with their kids running around. And then this items that I’ve picked in the space are all, to me, really enriching and developmentally exciting, because I put in there a lot of open ended toys and have this one item that’s it’s like a bucket, plastic bucket.
Parents will be like, What do I do with this? And I’m like, Oh, give it to your kid, see what they do with it? Because there is no answer to that question. What do you do with a plastic bucket? Put it on your head, sit on it, pretend like you’re a turtle.
Ayelet: Roll it around. Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay: And there’s 500 things you can do with it. And I’m sure if that item was in a department store, they would walk right past it, because it doesn’t seem like it does anything. So a lot of the toys people are blown away by seeing what their kids do just with the items themselves. And then I think the space is also just Yeah, creating this ongoing connection to other nice people who… yeah people are so nice, who just want to stay connected to other nice parent people.
Because we all know that making mom or dad friends with kids is really hard, so this space is really fostering that relationship. And then I just made everybody a Facebook group because they were wanting to talk to each other. And if they’re too nervous to exchange phone numbers, I was like, Okay, here’s a group for you, go talk to each other so that you can make playdates with each other and talk to each other.
Creating an Inclusive Space that Centers Neurodivergent Kids
Ayelet: I’m curious to hear what measures have you taken… other than, of course, making a space available for group therapy for kiddos who are maybe neurodivergent, for instance, but like what measures have you taken to make this space inclusive, accessible to lots of different groups of people?
Lindsay: It is blowing my mind calling something inclusive, sometimes it just draws neurodivergent kids, because to find a space that is accommodating of your child, if they have any special needs, it is impossible to find. But then also, I’m drawing in all of these neurotypical kids too. And I think why it’s working… It’s because one, I made it really beautiful, like the space is pretty and aesthetically pleasing. And I do feel like there’s something to that around everybody feeling like their kid is cared for and given something beautiful. I don’t know. That’s kind of a weird thing.
I thought about all my experience of working with kids and my own son who is a highly sensitive kid and thinking about in a large space, how can I think up every possible accommodation, whether it’s communication, or sensory processing, or wayfinding. Or I’ve thought about all of these things and talk to other OTs especially, and tried to figure out, how do I make the space feel really clear so that kids and parents know what to expect, but also exciting to them?
And I will say the one thing that I think makes it inclusive is that I really focused on the parents when I was building the space and I feel like that’s, most places, eh… do they care? Like, they try a little bit but they give parents benches that are like far away from where the kids are playing and stuff. And because I made it beautiful and comfortable for parents, I’ve heard a lot of things around them feeling like they’re enjoying it themselves, which I think then allows them to relax in the space because they also know that we’re able to be with any of their kids kind of whatever their kid shows up with.
Ayelet: You’ve mentioned this thing about how your space is beautiful, feels good. Why is that important to you, specifically?
Lindsay: I really enjoyed the idea that the space is for parents as well. Yeah. So when we think of typical children’s spaces, they got like really bright primary colors. And they have this sort of like hyper whimsy to it. And I don’t even know if kids actually even like that, that much> I want raising a child to feel like you don’t have to go to these like really dingy, overly bright places, you know? I want it to be a positive sensory experience for all people.
So like keeping it minimal, keeping the lights at a certain brightness, thinking about the music that’s being played. I had an employee that was putting on Kidz Bop, and I was like, friend, the music is for the adults, the music is not for the children. We’re putting on cool indie rock here, or like jazz or soul. Because I want the parents to feel like… if I could relax parents and make parents feel comfortable, we’ve all done our job.
Ayelet: All the other things that you have created about the space are for the kids, but this part is actually for the adults.
Lindsay: Yeah, and the space used to be a tech office. So it was like this open air and had these really high ceilings, beautiful lights. And I was like… this is for children. And my landlord was like, What are you talking about? Like we made this for tech workers. And I was like, No, this… I have a room that was a phone booth for them. And I turned it into like my sensory lightroom, my quiet room.
So I put in, you know, lights and beanbags. And a basket of fidgets and squish mellows and stuff, and people lose their minds over that room and then go replicate it in their own homes. And it’s just… my own home doesn’t look like that. But like let me create a space in which you come into it, and you feel like Ah, wow, this is so lovely to be here.
Ayelet: Yeah, I also feel like and I don’t want to put words into your mouth. But I feel like there’s a thing around a space that is for kids with special needs, kids who are neurodivergent. And that many of those spaces are not thought about. There’s not a lot of thought that goes into it other – than other than they’re doing about, we are – right, we are doing a job here. We need to fix this child, but you are thinking about so much more than that! And that’s so important. And that is quite unique about what you do.
Lindsay: Yes, I hate most clinics.
Ayelet: It doesn’t feel clinical That’s what it is. Right? Like that’s a big… it feels like a space you want to be in, like you said.
Everyone Benefits from Physical Accommodations to Make a Space More Inclusive
Lindsay: I’m aware of the experience, these people are my customers, too. So it’s like, I’m aware of the experience they’re having. And I want it to feel positive for them, and relaxing for them. So if I make a clinic in which the hallways are bare, there’s fluorescent lighting, there’s no signage anywhere. The toys are all hidden way up on a shelf, and you can’t access them, and you’ve got this tiny table and chairs, a kid looks at that and is like, Get me out of here immediately! Being in that space is like a soul crusher. I’ve been in those, I’ve worked in those. They are hard to motivate and feel good in.
It gives the parents a feeling to have, they’re given a little children’s chairs to sit in. They’re not given like a regular sized chair, or they’re not given a space at all. They’re in the waiting room. But just the thought that we put towards parents enjoying the space and feeling comfortable, to me says a lot, and lets them know that they are part of the experience.
And that it’s not just about the kids getting therapized or whatever. I haven’t fully thought through it because it’s like happening in real time. I’m three months into the business, and it is the most inclusive space I’ve ever seen, experienced so far, and still unsure how it’s happening.
Ayelet: Well, I mean, I think I mean, I could give you my two cents about why I think… I think you you use the language of inclusivity. Right, you’ve created a space that is open, easy to navigate, you talked about how you created a physical space that is safe, for not only kids who don’t have sensory needs, who don’t have any additional needs, but you’ve put the more marginalized segments of your community of families at the forefront. They’re centered in your space.
So whether it’s about the physical boundaries of the space, whether it’s about the lighting, and how much stuff is available, and where. You pointed to things that you did to help people navigate through and where they could go, they know automatically this is for them.
Lindsay: Yes, I’ve heard a lot about how inclusion is for everybody, and that we often think of all of these accommodations as only serving neurodivergent kids. But actually it’s benefiting everybody, I feel like! I do this whole pitch, especially with the neurotypical families because I often get nervous about if there’s ever a situation and they get an item thrown at them or their kid gets bit. I want them to know that we don’t kick kids out. We don’t do punishment. We explain to you and we support you, but you know all the parents we support your style of parenting and where your kid is currently, like behaviorally developmentally.
And so if that stuff happens, I’m so sorry, but like, I’m not gonna “side with you,” quote unquote. Like I’m, I’m here for everybody. And so I really try to hammer that home to our neurotypical families who actually those kids sometimes end up having some delays and then they do go into therapy, right. But I, like you said, first and foremost are my neurodiverse, like that is number one. And then everybody else. Sometimes I’m like, Oh, you can hang with this? Okay, cool!
I think we sometimes assume they won’t. Sometimes I assumed that parents of… every so often I’ll have like a 15 month old come in, and there’ll be some four year olds, and there’ll be tussling, and the family will get really scared and take their kid out. And that’s totally that feels scary for you. And that parenting style wants something a little more contained, a little more, maybe consistent, and maybe no mixed ages, something like that. And I’m not really providing that. And I wish them well in finding what they’re looking for. But I’m definitely not going to… I was apologetic.
If a kid gets hurt, or if a family feels scared. I’m very sorry about that. But also, we’re mixing it up over there, where you know, all manner of kids and families are present there. And all those experiences are welcome. And I’m not going to say, “please, leave” if your kid is a thrower, that’s their style at the moment. Or if you are on the phone the whole time while you’re in the play space as a parent, like whatever, you know?
Ayelet: Well, I actually want to say something just to clarify, because actually, you are not for everybody. And that’s very important. Because you said out loud, you said, you know, I am inclusive to everybody, but actually not true. And that’s so it’s such an important point. Because I think we we talk about what inclusivity is, is well that’s it’s a space for everyone. But no, it’s actually not! Like if, you’re… if you have to have some exclusion to be inclusive.
What you’re excluding is the idea that actually, in order to center children who may have more physical needs, who may have more cognitive variances with what the quote unquote “typical” age is, or whatever… you’re, you’re not centering the kid the the quote, unquote, “typically developing” families. And that is a huge differentiator of what your space actually is. And I think, I will say out loud that I think that that’s a big part of what people are benefiting from.
Lindsay: Yeah, it just surprises me because, I just thought once you make a space quote, unquote, “inclusive,” primarily, you’re serving Autistic kids, or you’re primarily serving like one specific population of kids. And it often kind of just builds that set because there’s a lot of fear and misinformation around inclusion or around behavior or communication from parents of neurotypical children. And you’re right, I really don’t, I welcome in those people to try it out. Everyone gets a first visit. And if they walk away being upset because a child has shoes in the play space, because that child refused to take their shoes off, like, bye! That is such a minor thing. Who cares?
Every so often I’ll have those people, because I’m in a fancy area. And I’ll have those people who are like, you know, wanting manners and rules and safeness. And sure, that would be nice. But like, we talked about earlier, it’s structured chaos, we’re up for that. And I’ve worked with all the employees, I have to support structured chaos. And for those people that can’t hang with that, best of luck to you, see you later.
Ayelet: Right. Do you have those kinds of, sort of community agreements at the forefront in your space?
Lindsay: Yes. Like a waiver is all about, we’re here to support if your kids struggling, which is, I think different than a lot of play spaces. A lot of play spaces… I ran across this place recently that was like said there Montessori and Reggio Emilia. And then they had like 500 rules of what you can’t do in the space. And I was like, I don’t think you’re actually adhering to what you think you are. No, climbing up the slide. No climbing the walls. It’s like, of course, we all want those things. But you can’t be inclusive and have 500 rules.
So yeah, when people walk in… I also just got certified with Maisie Soetantyo‘s Better Community, she does a sensory integration and neurodiversity-friendly spaces. So right now, she’s going to people and supporting their creating a physical space that’s inclusive. So I try all my languaging to be around to then… I had an Instagram post recently. It was like, here’s our play space rules, and then it was blank. And then at the bottom it was like no, no play space rules. So my hope is that people look at that. And if they go like, aaah! I don’t like that! Then like, don’t come. I mean, or come see how it goes.
Ayelet: That’s incredible. I know we’ve talked a lot about what it is for other families, what you’re creating for other families what you want it to be for other families, but what about for you? What has all of this done for you?
Creating A Space For Renegade Therapists Who Want To Focus on Parent Education
Lindsay: But yeah. It just… I feel like I’ll probably cry, but I feel like for my whole career as a speech therapist, I felt like I was the outlier. Like everybody on a certain day of the week would make crafts for the week ahead for their kids. They would make these like crafts things and it was all thematic and it was all around holidays. I would always be the lady twiddling my thumbs in the corner. Like what? I’m not doing that! I’m doing routines based! I’m not making crafts, and I felt like an outlier all the time.
I always wondered, am I in the right field? Am I doing the right work? And I always walked away feeling like, I wished I could do more. And I wished I could do it in the way that I believed in it. And I made the space but then I chose myself not to do the direct service. So there was this big fear of like, are there other people in this area who believe in the style of practice that I believe in from multiple disciplines? And like all these people showed up, and they’re doing it! And I’m, like, blown away, because in our fields, we’ve created communities around preschool SLPs, medical SLPs. We’re like the renegade SLPs like, we’re like the… I feel like we’re like the outlier SLPs who don’t subscribe to the regular style that most people are practicing.
Part of me feels like happy that I’m surrounded by other people who are believing and practicing the same style. But also that I can have an OT and a music therapist, and a speech therapist and an early childhood educator, all promoting parent coaching and promoting Routines Based interaction through groups.
We’re solving all the world like, I feel like we’re solving all the world’s problems, you know what I mean? Like, it just it feels so awesome. And I see so much possibility because of all these other people in different disciplines who also want to support parents. And I really hope that it then changes the dynamic of how we treat families in our fields.
Ayelet: Yeah, well, and I want to be perfectly clear to to our listeners, you, yourself, are Learn With Less® trained, certified to provide Learn With Less® groups. But what your play space is providing is not just Learn With Less® groups, it’s actually a lot of different kinds of therapy within a group setting and other play based type groups within a play space that is actually very much formulated around the concepts of Learn With Less®.
Lindsay: Yes, and I send everybody to you because I don’t know of a ton in the OT world, or in the early childhood education world, speech world, some of these, like specialized worlds. There aren’t a lot of people doing this work. So I always send people to you to get that you know that information.
Ayelet: Will you explicitly name some of the things that the program has helped you to do? Because I think it’s really interesting. Your stories, especially is, it’s not unique, actually, in that lots of people come into the program, the Learn With Less® Facilitator Training and Certification Program thinking, I’m going to do this in order to lead Learn With Less® groups. And of course, that’s the ultimate experience that most people have. But there’s also, oftentimes, it ends up opening up a much bigger vision of what’s quote unquote “possible” or what someone wants to do, for a variety of reasons that I think actually you could speak to better than I perhaps, and I’d love your perspective on that.
The Value of Using Flexible Resources: Serve Your Community In The Way It Needs to Be Served
Lindsay: Yes, well, I want to thank you for that. Because most packaged programs, you have to be very prescriptive about how you offer them. So like I had somebody recently asked me about some other program, and I was like, no, because you have to do it, you know, A to Z, the way they told you how to do it. And that, again, creates this feeling of you can’t individualize it to the families. And so, I really appreciate your flexibility and ability to allow us to use the curriculum you created in the way that it serves our communities, you know, so for me working through the modules at the same time I was putting together my business plan.
And so as I was doing some of the modules, like around adult learning, around serving diverse family identities, around sort of clarified, like, you have the four pillars, and they feel very clean and easy to digest for parents. And all of these pieces are things that I really took with me when I thought about the business plan. And then in who I’m looking for, from other disciplines to run groups.
So like, believe me, I’ve tried all the Learn With Less® certified people. They live just far enough away from me that like I mean, and at some point, I will run Learn With Less®, that will happen. Right now. I’m not doing anything, oh my god.
Ayelet: You’re building something big here.
Lindsay: Holy moly. Yeah. But like the people who have done your training, I’m like, Please come, please come. Because I know they’ve got it too. And then those people that haven’t, I’m telling them about what you do. And I’m asking them to really boost up their, especially like parent coaching, their sort of awareness of counseling, and parent support, and group dynamics, because that’s the piece that everybody is at varying stages of comfort around. And that’s the thing I want to say is like the most, most, most, most most important.
Ayelet: I mean, is that something that you feel like you benefited from the program with?
Lindsay: Yes, 100% because there was nobody else there’s only one other lady in the field who’s talking about it, Carrie Ebert, and I’ve done your training and her training and really brought all of this stuff together because nobody taught me this in graduate school. I didn’t have a counseling class. I didn’t learn about adult learners. It was all from my own direct experience.
The Benefits of A Parent Coaching System: You Are On the Right Track
My own experience as being a parent and directly doing Learn With Less® gave me the confidence to, I think, one believe that within a system, we can do parent coaching, right? That because you’ve created it into a system that it feels like, Okay, I’m not like totally off base here with this parent thing, because it was always just an inkling in my mind.
You put visuals and words to a topic that I have been struggling with for all these years in my work, and I felt as if I couldn’t practice it, because nobody was talking about it. And it was like, does anyone else care about this topic and like nobody else was talking about it. So when you put together the curriculum, you’re directly talking about it, and you’re telling us how important it is. And it just gave me the feeling of I’m on the right track. And that there is value in how I want to practice
Ayelet: And it being like parent coaching, routines based intervention, everyday items. Those kinds of things, yeah.
Lindsay: Yes, yes, those things I just didn’t see it being talked about in our field. And so the way you put it together, it just buoyed my instincts around it. And it made me be like, Okay, no, I’m actively going to practice it. And you wrote it in a way that it was like, and this is how you actively practice that, you know, in a group setting.
Ayelet: Yeah, it’s very interesting to me that you’ve said a couple of times, there’s this sort of overarching theme here in this conversation about feeling like the outlier, feeling like not everybody is thinking or talking this way. But knowing deep in your bones that this feels right.
And it’s really interesting, because this is a conversation that happens over and over again, in our Learn With Less® community is like, I always felt like this. I always knew innately that this is true, but I never felt like I had the words or the framework. So I’m just curious, because we’ve talked a lot about the community you’re creating right, in your business. But looking reflexively, of what is the value of our Learn With Less facilitator community for you? What has that been? And what does that continue to be for you?
Why Have A Community of Other Professionals? Build Relationships That Buoy Your Own Beliefs
Lindsay: It’s so fun to see those people succeeding in their own areas with this practice. Whether it’s their private practice, or their Learn With Less® groups, because they show up talking about the wins, and they come bringing the challenges and questions. And of course, a lot of those questions are questions we all have… around advertising, or logistics, or things that happen in a group setting that who else would we go to, to ask these questions, you know? So it’s this ongoing relationship.
Those people, I feel as if there’s this unspoken agreement we’ve all made. That we all get it. And so I really enjoy knowing they’re out there. And then knowing that we can come together for both positive and negative, you know, sharing and that you facilitate, you know, weekly us coming together ongoing, and it just, it really, I wish they all lived near me. And they were all we all just like ran groups together. You should make like an Institute, where you like down in the, you know, down where you are, make like a Learn With Less® Institute and have like, everybody running things there.
Ayelet: There’s a there’s some eventual potential for that. That would be amazing.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah! I mean, when you look at the landscape, it’s it’s needed. And there’s so many people that tell me like, oh, I want to do what you’re doing. I was thinking about that. And then don’t. Many – most don’t. You know, like doing groups I’ve heard most people say they’ve wanted to and then don’t.
So there’s also something about the cohort that that are really brave people who are like, not fearless, but like willing to step out and try things, that there’s so many people in our fields who might also feel this way and just let that live. And don’t speak to that and just continue in these systems and not, not practice the way they believe, that it you know, would be effective.
Ayelet: How to practice the way you know is right. Renegade SLP, Lindsay.
Lindsay: I know seriously. I wish – I’ve heard every so often of people who were like, I wanted to do a group. So I talked to my so and so and they let me do a group. And every so often, I’ll hear that. But for the most part, you got to step out on your own and do it. And I see the success.
And it just keeps me going, seeing like, seeing Carly and her popularity, and Allie, and Rachel, and seeing how they’re building community in their specific areas, and continually trying out new things, and developing it and configuring it. And it’s just this wonderful, ongoing thing. We’re all trying out. Like there’s nobody around to like so we’re just comparing to each other because there’s nobody else doing what we’re doing.
Ayelet: Yeah. Well, it is so interesting, too Lindsay because I think, you know, there’s… you could take Learn With Less® and use it as like a business in a box, if you want to. There are people doing that. And also you can take Learn With Less® and then make it fit into whatever you want it to.
Whatever you want it to be, and then you have this consistent support, framework group, cohort, community, and sounding board of others who are doing similarly, like you said, brave things. I want to know” do you feel like you’ve always been this confident? And what help like imposter syndrome that you inevitably have experienced to some degree? What’s been helpful?
Working Through Imposter Syndrome to Build Confidence You Can Create An Impactful Parent Education Business
Lindsay: Well, I will say I spent all of 2021 sitting in my house, talking to business coaches and mentors, doing your training, doing all this stuff to build up my confidence. Because one thing that I always value is having mentors or people who have already done certain pieces of what I’ve done and can support the ongoingness. Have I always had this confidence? I have my husband’s, my husband’s in tech. So I definitely was able to, like have the resources to be like, I want to do this, you know? Yeah, without the fear of… but I did a big thing. Yeah. Not everybody has to do that.
But even just step out and say like, I have something of value. And I think you would all really love it. And from what I’ve seen from myself, and everybody that’s done Learn With Less®, sometimes it’s an immediate response, like yes, and sometimes it’s like a slow build. But either way, the need is there. And I think we’re all being shown that the work we’re doing is valuable and is successful.
No, I haven’t always had this confidence, though. I think I just… 2020 just… I got real tired. Being in your house. And like sitting on Zoom, being told that the school districts are building an airplane while it’s flying, and you have to just sit there while they figure it out. All that kind of stuff. I was like, I’m outta here Best of luck to you.
Ayelet: Like you said, you had certain privileges that allowed you to do that, for sure. Yes. And and also, you went for it.
Lindsay: Yeah. And I think I just got tired of it. I think I just got I felt like I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, where it was, okay, this feels like a turning point where I can make a choice for myself of what I want to do. And so I started first with private practice. I went from district to private practice work. And then I did a couple groups just like informal like playdate things. And those all went really well. And then I just decided to go for it.
Some people have asked me like, oh, did you get like, did you know that this was a need in your community? Or like, did you talk to people? And I was like, a little bit but I just had an instinct that this was a thing that was needed. And I just like went did it, and all the people who had done those playdates with us, like a year ago, are now members in the space doing groups. They’re there with us. Which is so cool.
And then of course, like lots of podcasts, listening to lots of podcasts of people and getting that feeling of Yeah, I’m gonna trust my instincts. Yeah, I’m gonna do this thing. You know. Having those people that kind of support that little voice of like, I want to try this thing. What do you think, you know.
Ayelet: What are some podcasts that you would recommend to others who are looking for that?
Lindsay: For a second, I was listening to Independent Clinician, with Jena Castro-Casbon. They were all talking about stepping out and doing something big.
Ayelet: Absolutely. Yeah.
Lindsay: I have yours, first. I have yours right there, right on the top there. And then I had done during 2021, I also did my DIR Floortime 201 course. So I started listening a lot to Affect Autism, Two Sides of the Spectrum with Meg Proctor, just listening to other people’s voices who also were stepping out and, and trusting their gut on how they wanted to change the system. And then seeing their popularity grow and the interest in what they were doing grow. And so I think seeing you all building these communities and this interest, I think that was also very helpful.
Ayelet: Like you said, it’s so important to have mentors who have gone before you in some way. There’s nothing else like the value of that, for sure. Yeah. That’s awesome. Lindsay, this has been awesome, first of all, and second of all, what would you say to someone who is considering Learn With Less®, considering becoming a Learn With Less® facilitator?
Someone who may or may not be ready to step out and take a giant risk, right? It doesn’t have to look like it does with you, as we have all kinds of other examples of other licensed Learn With Less® facilitators on the Learn With Less® podcast, but what would you say to somebody who’s thinking about it?
You Don’t Have to Build Your Dream From Scratch: Use Existing Resources to Expand Your Impact on Families in Your Community
Lindsay: Well, I love that idea that like you are, you are open to having people use the curriculum in the way that it supports them. So I feel like paying the money, getting access to the curriculum, and the modules, not only boosted my confidence in that my intuition was right about how I wanted to support families. But then also giving me a visual and being able to see your demos, and then connecting to the other people. I feel like because we’re able to use it in the way that we’d like and it’s flexible, it’s another really big toolbox that is added, that helps me feel like I don’t have to make it from scratch.
Because making something from scratch… it’s really hard. And if it doesn’t have to be that way. No, I really feel like if the idea… because initially my idea was I am going to directly run Learn With Less® classes. That was my… but then as I was going through the modules, I was like, Oh, I’m still going to run them. And also… like, holy moly, this is, this is everything that’s – when I would listen to it or hear it. It would just like ping ping! It was like a right connection in the beliefs I had internally.
That just felt so great, because there aren’t many systems that I went through in graduate school or that any other big box stuff that I’d walk away being like, yes! I’d walk away with a lot of questions and feeling like oh, I’ll have to take some of it and leave the other parts of it, which meant I couldn’t practice it.
So while I’m not yet running the groups, I think having access to the curriculum and having access to the community has really supported my ongoing… clarifying what I’m doing over at Spirited Play Labs! Because you gave it words, and you gave it visuals that really helped me a lot.
Ayelet: I need to know what visuals helped you, so that I can make more of them!
Lindsay: I remember, you always include a lot of photos. And that really helps me as a learner. And I’m just remembering some of the slides in which you had the picture, and then you were talking. And then it was always like these really clear bullet points.
I don’t know, because because listening to your podcast also was impactful for me, but like seeing the slides and having the images, and having the demo videos and then having other people’s demo videos. And then Oh, my God, and then you brought in like other people who could speak to, like pieces of it? Yes. I’m a very visual person. So having all of those, yeah, I just like loved them.
Ayelet: That’s great. That’s super helpful. Lindsay, thank you, for your time and energy today, and for being brave and confident and amazing.
Lindsay: Yes. Thank you for doing what you do, as well. And building all of this. Man, you built a big thing. And it’s really impactful and meaningful. And I’m so glad that you’re sharing it with everybody. Because also, I know we’re ending, but I have met a lot of people who are running playgroups that like don’t talk about it and don’t offer what they’re doing to anybody. So it’s very quiet. They’re not on social media.
I’ve met a lot of parent coaching people who are way behind the scenes, to the point that you cannot access what they’re doing. And they’re so busy, and they’re so involved in their communities directly, which is great, but then they aren’t making any large scale changes, because they’re only solely focused on their day to day work. Yeah, which I understand it. But I really appreciate the system you made and the curriculum you made because it allows us access to it, which I felt like I couldn’t find elsewhere. So, thank you.
Ayelet: Awesome. Thank you! It’s, I mean, that is why! That’s the why, for me, you have your why, I have my why, which is make a big impact make a big splash. All right. Well, thank you so much, Lindsay. This was such a pleasure to chat with you. And where can people find you who are looking to learn more about you and your business?
Lindsay: Yeah, social media. All of our handles are Spirited Play Labs, the website is spiritedplaylabs.com.
Ayelet: Lindsay, thank you so much. What a pleasure.
Lindsay: Thank you!
Ayelet: How about you, dear listener? Does this work call to you? Are you curious about expanding the impact you can have on new families in your community with a high quality, evidence-based program that will have them coming back again and again? You can discover more about the Learn With Less® facilitator training and certification program by heading to learnwithless.com/certification today.
